Timothy Studies (Direction of the church and leadership)

[Daniel Baumet]

Intro:
Over the last few years I have been absorbed in the research of re study scripture, comparing the good old KJV against many other “Original tongue” texts. From that I also have started to compare many of my notes against the new released “Messianic” bibles, and from Hebrew translations.
With the wealth of knowledge I gain from the comparison of these texts I began to review many of even my own teachings. So far to date, I am happy to say not really much has changed , other than I word my self stronger, and grow deeper in what I speak about.
Once again I am in a period of silence (this translates to me as a period of review and expansion of learning.
One direction I seem to go has been in the new re-study of the Pauline Letter to Timothy or for now the first letter. The Pauline texts in the Messianic Community have come under fire s of late as they are the only groups of text that seem to be Hebrew , and no Aramaic root so that they are now questioned as even authentic. I leave them to their arguments, it is not my concern as even if they are not, I still see value and merit
I will use the following translations as guide KJV (King James Version) NAS (New American Standard, Con (W.J.Conybeare: Epistles of Paul) TCNT (The 20th Century New Testament) (Amp) Amplified New Testament), CJB (Complete Jewish Bible)
My dictionary definitions are from Oxford (Canadian) and Collins
Am I perfect I doubt it … so I leave the readings and comments to you.. the rest I leave to Yeshua who will ultimately judge me. (amyan)

[Daniel Baumet]

The second lesson (Based on 1 Timothy 3)

Over time we have redefined our leaderships, and what they should be. In King James and NAS the office of bishop is mentioned how ever no where in the 5 official offices is this office mentioned .
Paul was an Emissary. What became known as a bishop was the office of shepherd (In New Brunswick they called them Parsons as they looked after more than one group. As the original church met (as the traditional Messianic still do ) in houses, the house leader (often called a congregational leader or host) was set to look after the local needs. As my office can atain to the larger the field the more stressful life can become. Many of these "Bishops" (this is the last time I use this term) only had house groups with in the city, but these days our charge can range up ad down the "valley" .
To be a "Shepherd" or even a house leader (deacon KJV) one had to realy set them selves apart .
a/ I had to be above reproach - above blame, scolding, or rebuke (Collins) No more baby stuff, I had to be grounded solid in word and duties.
b/ The husband of one wife - (some one needs to share this one with the Vatican) I struggled wit my words for a bit as I did not wish to imply or mislead my sisters, so I pray my next word does nt bring down the wrath of Kahn lol. What does take to bring a woman in line? Certainly I have learned over the years that it is not the me man you woman sit down shut up until I ask you to say something attitude. Some how we again have been given this idea of caveman tactics was what the original concept was and nothing could be further from the truth.
Fact was that a good man was as good a skilled negotiator and benevolent towards his "woman" , if he could keep peace in his house think of the advantage he brings to the group.
c/ temperate - (of climate) not given to extremism. Well just alone on that many "pastors" should be on the unemployment line.
d/ prudent - cautious, discreet, sensible. I am taking these right out of Collins so if you don't agree with the definition by all means right the folks... to often I watched (not to mention be receptive to ) those that have quickly mis represented what others have been about. (Yo look strange there for you are to be mistrusted) quick to rely on gossip , rather than check the facts.
e/ respectable
f/ hospitable (having an open door policy have increased the soul numbers more than all the great sermons being preached to empty buildings)
g/ able to teach. - a good teacher is a better student.
h/ not addicted to wine or pugnacious (an eagerness to fight or argue) * seems there are a few of us that need to read this book again)
i / gentle, uncontentious
j Free from the love of money. - These mega preachers that like to line there pockets must have missed this one. It is one thing to wish to feed your family, provide lodging and clothing for them and guests. But Grade a beef ? Especially with so many homeless persons. If these were true men of God would they not set up programs for reeducation, or what it would take to get them back into society. Instead of being a drain on the tax dollar maybe more of them could contribute.
As one of my favorite quotes is "If you want to be different, then be different." In spite of declaring a difference, I still see the same old same old priests of Rah before me. If we really wish for change here in the leadership we have the patterns that spoke much to many in so many ways. Maybe if we lived by the example we preach, more would come to believe.
NExt "Apostasy"

[Pathways Of Grace]

Interesting 'debate' as it has not been such at all. Daniel you take the position that you are somehow a victum here, get surly and then respond in a combination of faux humility while still lashing out for anyone having the nerve to question or ponder the ramifications of what you say (shaking head with a rye grin!). In most of this all is well, but tone is a very hard thing to read into a post (or any personal writing) without 'cues' as to what a person is saying. Like what I said I could read that I am rebuking you or 'scolding' as you put it, but that is not true. (smile).

First you are NOT being victumized. C'mon Daniel, you know that no one was trying to make this personal with you. You are a respected friend and no underlying anger, etc. is being directed at you by Jim. However, I do feel you may be speaking of someone else as well? If they are on this site and giving you problems (on the site, I have NO say what happens personally outside of the site) and it will be addressed. That is always the policy here.

Second the orignal question is what is important here. It's not doctrinal and IS asking what you personally believe vs. what is the actual fact. Seeing no one (scholar or not) really has come to a 'factual' conclusion, none here are asking what theologians through the ages could not give themselves, in other words, the facts....

Third is that a forum IS for questioning, et al. If a person does not wish to be questioned, then they would be in the wrong place to have a discourse with anyone, on anything, anywhere INCLUDING a forum online. By the nature of a conversation it allows interchange of facts, opions, ramblings and YES questions as well. Goes with the territory of being human. (smile)

Fourth is that you ARE among friends who are willing to take flak for saying what they perceive or believe (that's what friends should do...) and to question you on the same. It is a discussion among equals and that is also in the TOS so that it would be clear on that fact HERE.

Fifth is to remember the TOS says we CAN delete without consent or prior knowledge based on what we think is edifying or not. We are here to promote God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit - not ourselves. That said, we DO try to be accomodating and allow free expression. Fights are not allowed, but debate is (of course). Once we feel that a post is counter-productive to a good conversation, civility or just plain kindness, it qualifies to be deleted. We usually follow up (or prewarn) of the action AND why.

Sixth is that questioning is NOT the same as arguing or fighting. But we know that don't we?

Seventh is that veiled jibes (leaving names out) while rebuking a person will not be done here. It is done just to be uncivil or retalitory without knowing who the intended target is. That is below your own standards Daniel, as well as ours here at POG. If you have a beef either take it private or be upfront in a public forum. Otherwise just do not do that as it is not helpful, productive OR Christian!

Eighth you must decide whether you wish to share (give understanding (teach) of your beliefs as to equals) or to teach as the world does (take a position of authority on YOUR issues of interest and deem others inferior in knowledge); sharing is expected and encouraged, teaching in the stated manner is not. POG is not a podium for personal evangelism or to take a position of authority on THIS site (Jim and I are the authorities on this site - smile!). Good teaching IS sharing, answering questions (clarifying for better understanding), etc., bad teaching is saying you are unasailable on your points (I can not be wrong in my perspective, et al), can not make a mistake and that you can not be questioned on the validity of any point, hardly going to happen here... by anyone!

And finally... all should be handled in love as this is what Christ said is the hallmark of ALL the commandments, promises and teachings. It is the foundation of our faith and should be exercised at all times by BOTH sides (smile). Anger, rebukes, retorts, and other 'bad' behavior will violate that ethos. We encourage the love and not the anger. Sometimes we ourselves fail in that, but again that is human nature.

Be blessed, be loved and be at peace,

~ Jonathan

[Pathways Of Grace]

Apparently there are only so many replies to replies (too funny!). However I want to address the apostle/emissary thing a bit.An apostle was an authority over the church, basically intenerate and straightening out churches along the way. He was an authority on all thing doctrinal, social and theological as pertaining to the church, church leadership, and congregants. This is what an Apostle does, as well as, instruct in the ways of God and make new disciples as well.

What does an emissary do? The same thing if HIS master gave him instruction to do so. They would be the authority over the situation he was sent out on to deal with, basically intenerate himself (going from place to place) straightening out situations, people, money and circumstances as well. He would make sure that the powerful master he served was clearly understood and that his words obeyed.

Both would be sent to that which the masters had presiding power over. One to the world, one to whichever interest(s) his worldy master had influence or control over.

Paul was an Apostle and called himself such. He served a master and the master's plan. Both would do so. Both would have authority as given by those masters as well. In world trade (I used to do gloabal trading of diamonds, money (called traunching), goods, oil and other things. I was a mandate for many of my clients). A mandate is basically in the full power of what the buy or seller is doing and the mandate can sign any contract or sign any document with the power of the original interested party. Usually they signed or sealed the deal when it was being finalized.

This is how God worked also. He gives His authority to His disciples WHICH in turn makes them an Apostle, with God's authority, to act on His behalf. Emissaries can do this as well. Both bring messages AND if required can initiate action in any situation they deem necessary.

The distinction is moot. The bestowing of God's authority is not. Paul was an Apostle.

Blessings,

~ Jonathan

[Daniel Baumet]

My freind;

I do not mind so much in answering questions. Nor do I deny answers, how ever some things are not with in my field. I did attempt to convey that. I am more than aware of a fair share of debate over the Pauline texts. Especaily the letters to Timothy and Titus. There are those not just in my filed of dreams but with in the very walls of Christinaity that would declare that the whole character oand person of Paul is no more than fraud.
I get just as agrivated in the Messianic circles over utter nonsense that really serve no more than to foster disunity. Wether or not Paul existed, wether or not he wrote in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek what ever todate has no bearing at all to what I am saying here or shareing. My desire is to debate on issues that unify not divide. Nothing I wrote in the Timothy notes in any way shape or form even defers to the great divide other than perhaps mistakinly making an editorial comment.
I have set to you the three notes todate. My intro .. the first section and the second over the leadership. I further declare what texts I have used and as in a spirit of a child I say to you look see what I found! I admit I got distracted by the other debate. I have taken counsel and indeed there is 2 different now thoughts
Thought one- those that counsled me see the writtings in regard to Timothy and o far seem to be quite satisfied I did not villate any protocals.
Thought 2 - The debate, again my counsels take me to task in my behaviours in regard to even seemingly condescending my self.

I there fore remain true to the thoughts and notes to my studies on Timothy
And again to you I appologise and repent of my illicite and maliciuos behavior in the debate. I can only offer that at the time (if the original was here I could point out how things got triggered.) but since the original is gone I need to also delete this portion of the debate, so I will go no further.
I have again extended my answer to Jim... in that I leave the matter of the validity to these texts to those that deem them selves more knowledgeable than my self. I share from only what I have available, I personaly believe that Paul did exist and was a key and strong not just Emissary but a true Apostle at times in his zelousy to spread the word, some of that I fully believe (as I can be as passionate ) much was fueled over his own feelings of guilt in what he had done personaly to not just the work, but towards his God and to his messiah!
My answer to Jim in reagrd to the languiages was Paul could have written in any language he chose. And that Timothy as a personal student would have been mentored to the fullest of Pauls capabilities. I note that in the opening address Paul refers to Timothy as his son. Being Messianic I understand the implications of this as have been called so my self.
I do not seek to fight Jim .. if I did there would be an invitaion to a locked room and those over sized boxing gloves (which do little damage but contribute to venting) Besides I know where he lives mwaaaa ha ha ha ha ! eeek but then that can be impied both ways eh Jim lol!
Come here give me a hug ...

[Daniel Baumet]

Hey I love my enemy ... ( I love boping him or her on the nose) and I do good to them too (When I bop I make it real good lol)

JUST JOKING ALREADY!

[Daniel Baumet]

mmmm Jim .. what did you add to this Nog?? makes me all warm and (hic) fuzzy!

[Daniel Baumet]

I relaised I did not comment as to being victimaised .. maybe if you were here you would understand I was in a small way. But I confess there was a lot of underlying issues that presented an undercurrent that caused me to loose footing and get swept away. If it helps I feel better .. lol
Forgive me as I took more than one personal attack this month square on to not only what I believe and from within my own community but from forces meaning well outside .. I guess good old Jim in his usual way just picked a wrong moment lol but Jim I believe understands me some what .. (that is pretty scary)

Be blessed and Shalom .. BTW I present again the definitons on Emissary and Apostle .. as we say I choose to disagree so we shall agree to diagree .. (at least I dont hurl my in your world at you lol)

[Daniel Baumet]

Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the later times some shall fall away from the faith, paying (more) attention to deceitful spirits < because they continually give their attention to deceiving spirits and the things demons teach - Wesley > by the means of the hypocrisies of liars have branded their conscience with hot irons.

Apostasy - the falling away from. We watch as America and Canada's largest groups fall in to disarray over issues they should not even allow open to debate. Topics and teachings held sacred for centuries are suddenly shelved to meet a more secular world. Ordination statutes and criteria, life., even the definition of salvation is up and open to personal interpretation whether or not it has scriptural foundation to it.
The definition of marriage, ha sent more out side a congregational setting as the sanctity of the ceremony no longer is considered valid as altars become polluted.
Story telling has replaced the solid gospel of His salvation. Fables and fish stories clutter the pews instead of the message of His redemption. Yoga is being introduced as a method of worship in Christian groups, Karate Shintoism, and forms of buddism are incorporated and blended as forms of Christina living .
It was well said that they would call good evil and evil good. A teacher is fired for preferring Creation science while another teacher teaching his religion ( Evolutionism) is promoted. "by the power invested in my by God ,.." is not By the power of the State" What government ever continued to exist when they rebelled against the Holy one? What nation ruled after they stopped worshiping The Great I Am"?
The warning signs are on the wall we stand before an angry God .. we will pay if we do not realign our selves.

[Pathways Of Grace]

Ecumenism is at the root of what you speak, a religious synergy to the lowest (similar) denominator. The harbringer of this apostacy (you have that right) is the Catholic Church. The Rcc supported and sponsored the entire movement to prevade within other religions, especially those not recognizing Christ, to build a consensus among those that normally would be the anthesis of the Christian faith. One they could control. The RCC does not see as a level playing field so to speak, bur rather the expanding of it's power and reach of every phase and perception of life.

With nothing less than world dominance (both polictical and religious) in it's sight.

Remember this is the same strategy that work over a thousand years ago. The RCC was formed to bring in the Christians and Pagans alike under the RCC's authority. the RCC is a polictical creature with a religious facade to placate the masses. Again that is why the push today for the Latin Mass as none would be able to understand, or to decry what is said, due to it's religious ambiguity to the major portion of adherents. The Dark Ages would simply return.

The telling point is that the office of Inquistor has never been disbanded. Why not?

But the real prevalance of New Age thought and approach has not been pioneered by the likes of Rick Warren and his megachurch, but rather like Schuler (Crystal Cathedral) and his "positive thinking" diatribes. In the end it is saying that by our own efforts we can see God and be like Him, and oh yes, expect all the rewards that go along with that. Sound familiar? It should. The RCC believes you gain entrance to heaven because of works, not that old biblical teaching of works because of faith, but the faith being justified and increase through works.

All backwards and geared for a long journey south. Get out your abestos underwear if you believe in this.

True salvation, discipleship and faith has always been through our relationship with Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life. However discipleship requires work, namely: deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. Are you DOING that? For he who denies Christ, He will deny and he who claims Christ, him also He will claim. It's simple. Your walk of faith is either validated or dismissed by the very fact of who you serve.

Without Christ you have no promise.

Out spiritual allegiance is to God NEVER a church. If you claim you are a Baptisit, Methodist, et al, then you need to take a long hard look at your faith. I'm a Christian. Some churches may truly be part of the body of Christ, but the church (any) are NOT the body of Christ. Only those who obey Christ are His and have acquired their sonship, not in works, but in embracing the heavenly promises, being judged by the OT laws concerning sin AND HAVE MOVED ON toadoption thropugh Grace. It takes effort, knowledge and time.

Serve God and be free, serve Satan and die eternally.

Easy choice? Then make it, everyday, in everything, at all times. Then your election is made sure, then you receive a white stone (new name) and are assured your place in the Book of Life. To do otherwise is simply unacceptable.

Be blessed, be loved and be at peace,

~ Jonathan

[Daniel Baumet]

I prefer the term "Constaninism" . After all it was he and his sun worshiping principals that would lead the world into the "dark" ages. Was it not recorded that as he snet for leaders elected to all corneres that tose that objected to him were assassinated in the night?
So it was birthed, a form of new paginism, and Sol worship replacing the gods of stone with names stolen from the "Christian" sect . Substitutioanlism had now seeded a more gastly sacrifice. He set him self up on the throne and called himself God. He changed the feast days to pagan holidays , and more errors .
As in the beginning so it is even now with those that oppose him to be condemed to death, even those knights templar still are not disbanded nor the Knights of Columbas ever recanted thier manifesto.
It is indeed only a matter of time as the docterine of compromise is now changed to secularism as the new found faith.